# What are some benefits that rhombus development has brought to racket? **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Tags:** rhombus\ **Created:** [June 29, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054 "2023-06-29T12:50:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/57b2e6/32.png) [@Zeb](https://racket.discourse.group/u/Zeb)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/1 "2023-06-29T12:50:40Z")
recently, someone said this on the racket discord server and I would like to know more about it. > … the rhombus project is approaching four years and it has brought nothing but benefits to Racket what are some benefits that rhombus development has brought to racket? any part of racket is fair game, including DrRacket. here's a recent one that was mentioned on the discord: DrRacket got an [improvement to how it does define pop-ups](https://github.com/racket/drracket/pull/620). I don't really understand the improvement since I don't use Dr racket, but it sounds like each lang can change how this pop-up works now. If I'm missing something, feel free to explain in more detail. ---
**Author:** ![Decabytes](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/racket.discourse.group/decabytes/32/54_2.png) [@Decabytes](https://racket.discourse.group/u/Decabytes)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/2 "2023-06-29T16:45:47Z")
I've been meaning to do a deep dive into Rhombus now that it's been worked on for a few years. But as an outsider to the project I'd say... The Rhombus Language is a test for the whole ideology of Racket. Racket is a good Scheme don't get me wrong, but there are plenty of other good Schemes out there to use. One of Racket's differentiators has always been about DSL's and new programming languages. By creating a fully fledged language on top of Racket, that might at some point supplant the main language "Racket" we are seeing out in the public the full capabilities of this Lisp that is supposed to be a language design platform. If the Racket team can't make it work with industry leading knowledge in programming language theory, what chance do we have? At the end of the day putting all the work to create a new DSL or new programming language has to have some pay off. In @mflatt's Google Group Post on Racket2 he said > Partly, I believe that a syntax with infix operators, fewer > parentheses, etc., would be better. That's a matter of opinion, but at > least it's an opinion backed by enough experience with parentheses > that it can't be written off as uninformed. More significantly, > parentheses are certainly an obstacle for some potential users of > Racket. Given the fact of that obstacle, it's my opinion that we > should try to remove or reduce the obstacle. A language with less barriers to entry in it, means more people in the Racket Eco system and more potential contributors. The success of Rhombus means that we get less people [commenting on my post](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/sr9k8g/people_that_are_creating_programming_languages/) in /r/ProgrammingLanguages with "I didn't know I could design a language on top of Racket". Some of these benefits are still forthcoming, but by working through this with a language like Rhombus, we are stress testing one of Racket's biggest differentiators amongst programming languages. One of the main things I'd like to see come out of this project as I continue to watch it is... _How will they address the "Will I need to know Racket to work in Rhombus?" Problem_ This is the problem with a lot of great languages, I.E Kotlin, F#, Clojure etc. They are called Guest Languages for a reason. Some of these pain points are inevitable, but I think we can still do better at getting people to learn Rhombus without ever touching Racket ---
**Author:** ![Zeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/57b2e6/32.png) [@Zeb](https://racket.discourse.group/u/Zeb)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/3 "2023-06-29T17:30:53Z")
I think you misunderstood me. it sounds like you're trying to answer "what is the benefit of rhombus" or "what is the point of rhombus". I am not asking those. I am asking how racket itself has been improved due to work on rhombus. what changes has rhombus caused in racket that improved racket? Maybe I should provide more context from our discussion in the discord. We were discussing an article that was critical of racket. one of the criticisms was working on a whole new language makes the future of racket uncertain. one response was: - working on rhombus doesn't mean racket falls to the wayside because it's all on the same platform for languages. it's not a zero-sum game because both languages are running in the same platform. they're not separate products. - and, working on rhombus causes improvements in racket. beneficial changes are made in the rest of racket as part of the work to support rhombus. that was my understanding of what was said at least. I want to explore that response more and learn about it, so I am asking about examples of those improvements. the link I gave in my original post is an example. it's a way in which doctor racket was improved due to work on rhombus. ---
**Author:** ![shhyou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@shhyou](https://racket.discourse.group/u/shhyou)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/4 "2023-06-29T18:59:36Z")
The introduction of the `configure-expand` submodule is yet another example. [https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/running-sa.html#(part.\_configure-expand)](https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/running-sa.html#%28part._configure-expand%29) Racket: [https://github.com/racket/racket/commit/38a7d658439d0817d03da797122cd2ff3329df2e](https://github.com/racket/racket/commit/38a7d658439d0817d03da797122cd2ff3329df2e) Rhombus: [https://github.com/racket/rhombus-prototype/commit/5635363f8a9c35c622298c1f3f405a668e67f35d](https://github.com/racket/rhombus-prototype/commit/5635363f8a9c35c622298c1f3f405a668e67f35d) The addition of [racket/hash-code](https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Equality.html#%28mod-path._racket%2Fhash-code%29) is also from Rhombus. [https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4546](https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4546) ---
**Author:** ![shhyou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@shhyou](https://racket.discourse.group/u/shhyou)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 3:37am UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/5 "2023-06-30T03:37:18Z")
Found two more after searching for Rhombus in [racket/racket](https://github.com/racket/racket). 1. Configurable error messages for `syntax/parse`, [`syntax/parse/report-config`](https://users.cs.utah.edu/plt/snapshots/current/doc/syntax/error.html). [https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4652](https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4652) 2. The [`equal-always?`](https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Equality.html#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._equal-always~3f%29%29) function that tests whether two possibly mutable values will always be equal. [https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4076#ref-issue-468212209](https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4076#ref-issue-468212209) Looks like quite some of the improvements are motivated by the macro-extensible non-S-expression syntax that Rhombus needs. ---
**Author:** ![notjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e47774/32.png) [@notjack](https://racket.discourse.group/u/notjack)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/6 "2023-06-30T20:27:57Z")
There's also the `#:do` and `#:splice` keywords in `for` loops, those were motivated by Rhombus. ---
**Author:** ![dstorrs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@dstorrs](https://racket.discourse.group/u/dstorrs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/7 "2023-07-01T03:06:15Z")
What are #:splice and #:do? I'm not finding them with a medium-effort google. ---
**Author:** ![shhyou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@shhyou](https://racket.discourse.group/u/shhyou)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/8 "2023-07-01T03:49:26Z")
[https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html#(form.\_((lib.\_racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt).\_for))](https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._for%29%29) `#:do` allows definitions & effectful expressions in `for` iteration clauses > ```scheme > > (for ([i '(1 2 3)] > #:do [(define neg-i (* i -1))] > [j (list neg-i 0 i)]) > (display (list j))) > (-1)(0)(1)(-2)(0)(2)(-3)(0)(3) > > ``` `#:splice` abstracts over `for` iteration clauses as macros as in [https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html#(form.\_((lib.\_racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt).\_define-splicing-for-clause-syntax))](https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._define-splicing-for-clause-syntax%29%29) > ```scheme > > (define-splicing-for-clause-syntax cross3 > (lambda (stx) > (syntax-case stx () > [(_ n m) #'([n (in-range 3)] > #:when #t > [m (in-range 3)])]))) > > (for (#:splice (cross3 n m)) > (println (list n m))) > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Syntacticlosure](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/racket.discourse.group/syntacticlosure/32/1211_2.png) [@Syntacticlosure](https://racket.discourse.group/u/Syntacticlosure)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/9 "2023-07-01T16:48:01Z")
I think the most important thing that Rhombus brought to racket is binding spaces: [https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/syntax-model.html#(tech.\_binding.\_space)](https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/syntax-model.html#%28tech._binding._space%29) ---
**Author:** ![Zeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/57b2e6/32.png) [@Zeb](https://racket.discourse.group/u/Zeb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/10 "2023-07-01T17:04:43Z")
Can you elaborate? I read what you linked and I understand as something to do with introducing a scope. Why do you feel this is the most important thing that rhombus has brought to racket? ---
**Author:** ![soegaard](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/racket.discourse.group/soegaard/32/19_2.png) [@soegaard](https://racket.discourse.group/u/soegaard)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/11 "2023-07-01T17:08:02Z")
> Why do you feel this is the most important thing that rhombus has brought to racket? > Well, > [@Zeb](#): > > Why do you feel this is the most important thing that rhombus has brought to racket? It's a general tool that can be used to built other features. It would be perfect if you wanted to implemented dot notation for example. ---
**Author:** ![sorawee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@sorawee](https://racket.discourse.group/u/sorawee)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://racket.discourse.group/t/what-are-some-benefits-that-rhombus-development-has-brought-to-racket/2054/12 "2023-07-01T23:32:55Z")
- Realms for error-message ([https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4104](https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4104)) - Unicode improvements - Command-line REPL improvements - DrRacket improvements (e.g. supporting tab cycling) Not yet merged improvement: - search kind information ([https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4263](https://github.com/racket/racket/pull/4263))